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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 29, 2010 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Agree or Disagree...

I have read that Touch of Grey was written to be interchangeable with Bertha, that is, same type of easy song to warm up with, good groove that audience can bounce to, etc.

Do you agree that Touch is to the 80's what Bertha was to the 70'?

TOOTMO

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

The groove is identical. This same groove pops up in the bridge of The Wheel as well, but only for a few bars. I think Jerry just plain liked it....

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 29, 2010 10:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Apparently there were a few times when both songs peacefully co-existed on the same setlist, usually so far as I can see, either at the beginning or end of a set (or as encore), which is perhaps testament to their rabble-rousing tendencies:


09-17-82 Cumberland County Civic Center, Portland, Me.
03-30-83 Warfield Theater, San Francisco, Ca.
04-20-83 Providence Civic Center, Providence, R.I.
06-18-83 Saratoga Performing Arts Center, Saratoga, N.Y.
10-11-83 Madison Square Garden, New York, N.Y.
06-29-84 Blossom Music Center, Cuyahoga Falls, Oh.
07-13-84 Greek Theatre, U. of California, Berkeley, Ca.
04-07-87 Meadowlands Arena, East Rutherford, N.J.
06-19-87 Greek Theatre, U. of California, Berkeley, Ca.
07-12-87 Giants Stadium, East Rutherford, N.J.
07-24-87 Oakland Coliseum Stadium, Oakland, Ca.
09-11-87 Capital Centre, Landover, Md.
09-16-87 Madison Square Garden, New York, N.Y.
04-13-88 Rosemont Horizon, Rosemont, Il.
07-04-89 Rich Stadium, Orchard Park, N.Y.
09-30-89 Shoreline Amphitheatre, Mountain View, Ca.
10-23-89 Charlotte Coliseum, Charlotte, N.C.
07-12-90 Robert F. Kennedy Stadium, Washington, D.C.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jan 29, 2010 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

hmmmm

I was at these three
09-17-82 Cumberland County Civic Center, Portland, Me.
04-20-83 Providence Civic Center, Providence, R.I.
06-18-83 Saratoga Performing Arts Center, Saratoga, N.Y.

Might have to go back and give a listen - Bertha always roused my rabble way more than Touch

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ok I did go back and listen and I'm sticking with my initial response. Check the 4-20-83, to me Touch drags a little and slows around the middle (bridge?) where Bertha doesn't have any slow spots and maybe even ramps up in the middle (bridge?). It also seems Jerry really lets loose more in Bertha.

Oh, And lets not forget the Phil Bombs in Bertha!!!!

This post was modified by jglynn1.2 on 2010-01-29 19:15:24

This post was modified by jglynn1.2 on 2010-01-29 19:19:24

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 29, 2010 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Jim, your dedication to truth, justice and the Grateful Dead way of life go way above and beyond. I shall be writing to our esteemed PM to recommend you be awarded one of his finest satin-covered, goosedown-filled credenzas (or whatever he has lurking at the bottom of the cupboard). Good work, that man!

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jan 29, 2010 11:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

well...if i can get the "laugh track" of that "Train Wreck" to subside for a moment...



identical rhythms for the most part;

quarter, 2 eigth's, dotted quarter, eigth/
eigth rest, eigth, eigth rest, eigth, half/

each with it's own variations...Touch has more chord changes of greater frequency, more challenging to find one's way through offering more variations...laying back on a Bertha would also summon forth ideas in a different way, depends on the mood i guess...the key is to mix it up (couldn't imagine them doing the songs back to back, at least not w/o segueing)


you could draw rhythm parallels between a lot of songs;
Not Fade, Woman Are Smarter, Aiko (the rhythmic Bo Diddley ditties)
Bird Song and Dark Star jams (at least they start out that way)
most of the up tempo cowboy songs, except El Paso which is in 3/4
slow Eyes and Foolish Heart
fast Eyes and Let It Grow

then there are those songs that stand alone (but that's another thread)

some of the drummists here could probably expand with detail

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

"drummists"???

Is that like a high-falutin' drummer?

TOOTMO

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

it's not in a high falootin' dictionary so can't say for sure

suppose you could see it as a drummer who takes the dishes out of the sink before he pisses in it

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

"suppose you could see it as a drummer who takes the dishes out of the sink before he pisses in it"

Excellent! I have just co-opted that for my own private use.

Thanks,
TOOTMO

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

btw - that was an old joke about the difference between a rock and a jazz drummer

notice my use of the "High Falootin'" Grand Funk spelling, exposing the tender under-belly of my garage band youth

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

I like Grand Funk. My brother used to have a 45 of American Band that was gold vinyl. As a youngin', he convinced me that it was GOLD GOLD. Big sound from 3 guys.

TOOTMO

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

One of the better reasons to have two sinks...

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

2 drummers, 2 sinks, no waiting...

you'd think Santana would have to be at least a 5 sink band

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

:)

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

btw cush, there's always "General Delivery" :)

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 29, 2010 2:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

I appreciate very much E. But still just can't smoke around here...

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Poster: pHurthur Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

in the army they teach you to wash your hands after pissing. In the Marine Corp they teach you not to piss on your hands or piss in the sink.

This post was modified by pHurthur on 2010-01-29 21:43:21

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jan 29, 2010 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

From a subjective point of view I wholeheartedly disagree.

Maybe one of the more musically knowledgeable forumites could offer a more objective view

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Poster: ducats Date: Jan 29, 2010 4:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

I agree to disagree.

Touch moved along.

Bertha was ROCK N ROLL

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Poster: pHurthur Date: Jan 29, 2010 9:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

maybe for many, but "WE WELL GET BY, WE WILL SURVIVE" with Bertha.

MHHRF.jpg

This post was modified by pHurthur on 2010-01-29 17:55:49

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Jan 29, 2010 10:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Agree.

Much Like Day Job and US blues have a similar sound I think early uptempo versions of Touch have a total Bertha feel. One guy told me he went to the Portland ME show in 82 and opened with Bertha. The second set opened with an early appearance of Touch and he thought they were high and playing Bertha again.

Also, does anyone else think the Touch of Grey solo is similar to the Run for the roses solo?

This post was modified by lobster12 on 2010-01-29 18:32:20

This post was modified by lobster12 on 2010-01-29 18:35:00

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 29, 2010 11:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

L12: "have a similar sound I think early uptempo versions of Touch have a total Bertha feel."

That's kind of what I was thinking. It's definitely not a cowboy song or polka song. It's not a launching pad for exploration. Yada yada yada.

Mr. Tell, in another post, states it better than I did: does Touch perform the same "function" as Bertha did/does? That's what I meant to say. I'll leave musical structure analyzing to Midnight Sun and GellyBellie.

TOOTMO

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Jan 29, 2010 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

I don't think it was intentinally written for that probably just an example of not having a fresh idea for it musically, probably an unconscious thing maybe . Have you heard Hunter's early versions? The line was say your peice and piss off. One thing that strikes me is that while everyone was fed up with Jerry's drug use some of the song allmost seems like he could have written the lyrics you know? Drawing the curtains, I don't care, say your peice and get out.

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Poster: GennyBenni Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Musically speaking, I think the songs are pretty similar - both are uptempo songs in a major key which stick to a few chords basic to the key they are in. Bertha sticks to mainly G, C, and D (Amin makes a brief appearance too), and ToG has mainly B, E, F#, and A.

I guess touch of grey is a little more interesting harmonically than Bertha, it features the use of a lot of minor chords and the progressions seem a tad more sophisticated. Bertha mainly sticks to G, C and D, and it literally does not get any simpler than that, except in songs like Smokestack Lighting, which is based on a single chord (E minor).

For the record, though, I think Touch Of Grey is an abysmal, boring, awful song. Bertha kicks ass. Don't know why I feel this way exactly - as I said, I do agree that the two are similar. But somehow Touch Of Grey never fails to piss me off.



This post was modified by GennyBenni on 2010-01-29 20:47:10

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 29, 2010 11:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

I guess my first reaction is to think that because there are so many levels (well, two anyhow...?) to address this notion on, it's easy to say "yeah!"...if that makes any sense.

EG, one could say "DS-->StSt-->11 suite" was interchangeable with "TIFTOO suite" as a major, mini set extravaganza, and you'd be right, in a very superficial way. That's how I'd take the "Bertha/Touch" were both opening, "get em going" types...But, if one were taking it as the songs were actually structured similarly, we'd need someone with more musical knowledge...I sure don't see that though, myself.

Of course, I was the one that thought post-hiatus StSt was a diff song completely, so I can't be assumed to judge chords from notes from diddly do...

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Hey Will- I don't know if the post hiatus Stephens were technically different or not, but they sure sound and feel different to me- kind of like the difference between being knocked and around in a rough ocean vs. just sort of leisurely floating around a swimming pool.

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Poster: Jobygoob Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Musically there's some similarities. The way Bertha switches back and forth from the G to the C is kind of the same structure as the intro to Touch going from B to F# and A to E. The chord structure of Touch is very similar to Rubin and Cherise as well, though, and I probably wouldn't draw any comparisons to Rubin and Bertha, so that's a little weird. During the years I saw the Dead live Touch seemed to have more flexibility as far as set placement but of course Bertha benefited from almost fifteen more years to develop.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 29, 2010 12:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Cool; relative to what Rob and I were babbling on about the "nonsense" of CCS in the other thread, I'd say that's a big diff for me with these two as Touch is a straight up "meaning" tune and Bertha is more in the nonsense spirit of CCS, roughly...

Bertha was a fan (electric); assume everyone knows this? At least that's the story from 71, and I assume Dodd has it all at his site now? Hmm--will check myself.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

Nonsense? Nonsense? Why Bertha is a perfectly sensible and respectable song. Nonsense my arse!!!

I had a hard run
Running from your window
I was all night running, running, running
I wonder if you care?
I had a run-in
Run around and run down
Run around a corner
Run smack into a tree

I had to move
Really had to move
That's why if you please
I am on my bended knees
Bertha don't you come around here anymore

Dressed myself in green
I went down to the sea
Try to see what's going down
Maybe read between the lines
Had a feeling I was falling, falling, falling

Turned around to see
Heard a voice calling, calling, calling
You was comin after me
Back to me

I had to move
Really had to move
That's why if you please
I am on my bended knees
Bertha don't you come around here anymore

Ran into a rainstorm
Ducked into a bar door
It was all night pouring, pouring rain
But not a drop on me

Test me, test me
Why don't you arrest me?
Throw me in the jail house
Until the sun goes down
Till it go down

I had to move
Really had to move
That's why if you please
I am on my bended knees
Bertha don't you come around here anymore

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 29, 2010 2:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

It's really a pathetic commentary on this "instant gratification" world we live in that I could find this out ASAP...

In HS, a girl that shall remain nameless (though the truth is we got married many years and much history later) actually did her term paper on the DEAD ("advanced composition"...bet Rob loves that term...in which we used Strunk and White as our "bible"), and she worked like the dickens to find out a number of interesting factoids, one of which was what "bertha" really was...

I was so impressed. Never mentioned it then though.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 29, 2010 2:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

What? I suppose a fan or something...

;)

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Poster: Jacky Hughes Date: Jan 29, 2010 1:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Agree or Disagree...

A good 1971 Bertha wins every time.